tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955388713581848615.post1864131644751286561..comments2024-03-14T08:08:39.968+08:00Comments on The Shroud of Turin: My comments on a Telegraph article about Thomas de Wesselow's claim that the Shroud is authentic but Jesus was not resurrected #2Stephen E. Joneshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16183223752386599799noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955388713581848615.post-74758138788922582882013-08-15T06:27:54.534+08:002013-08-15T06:27:54.534+08:00Peter Salemi
>... I do believe the shroud is t...Peter Salemi<br /><br />>... I do believe the shroud is the burial cloth of Christ and the image is the result of the resurrection. <br /><br />Great!<br /><br />>I was just asking a question that a non-believer might ask so I can answer the non-believer my self just in case, i have the answer for them. <br /><br />You should have said that upfront to prevent any misunderstanding. <br /><br />But my answer would still be what I wrote.<br /><br />Stephen E. JonesStephen E. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16183223752386599799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955388713581848615.post-80840169155393840102013-08-15T04:44:31.125+08:002013-08-15T04:44:31.125+08:00His Mr Jones I do believe the shroud is the burial...His Mr Jones I do believe the shroud is the burial cloth of Christ and the image is the result of the resurrection. I was just asking a question that a non-believer might ask so I can answer the non-believer my self just in case, i have the answer for them. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17922589626668061507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955388713581848615.post-8539979701084804292013-06-02T15:37:24.977+08:002013-06-02T15:37:24.977+08:00Peter
>Hi Mr Jones. I believe what you believe...Peter<br /><br />>Hi Mr Jones. I believe what you believe 100% <br /><br />Sorry, but I find that hard to believe.<br /><br />>One thing can you explain to me if the image was created by Vapography. <br /><br />I don't believe that the image on the Shroud was created by vaporography, i.e. by gases from the man's (who I believe on the basis of the evidence was Jesus) decomposing body, for starters. <br /><br />There is no evidence on the Shroud of decomposition of the man's body. <br /><br />>Then when the bones are just left and just the image remains on the shroud could that explain the blood clots not breaking and the image on the shroud. <br /><br />I don't understand your "when the bones are just left". <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2020:1-9&version=ESV" rel="nofollow">John 20:1-9</a> records that Jesus' tomb was empty, with only His "linen cloths" graveclothes left behind:<br /><br />"20 Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb. 2 So she ran and went to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one whom Jesus loved, and said to them, `They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him.' 3 So Peter went out with the other disciple, and they were going toward the tomb. 4 Both of them were running together, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. 5 And stooping to look in, he saw the linen cloths lying there, but he did not go in. 6 Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb. He saw the linen cloths lying there, 7 and the face cloth, which had been on Jesus' head, not lying with the linen cloths but folded up in a place by itself. 8 Then the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went in, and he saw and believed; 9 for as yet they did not understand the Scripture, that he must rise from the dead."<br /><br />Stephen E. Jones<br />-----------------------------------<br /><b>Comments</b> are moderated. Those I consider off-topic, offensive or sub-standard will not appear. I reserve the right to respond to any comment as a separate blog post.Stephen E. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16183223752386599799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955388713581848615.post-13147161937324733952013-06-02T01:42:44.685+08:002013-06-02T01:42:44.685+08:00Hi Mr Jones. I believe what you believe 100% One t...Hi Mr Jones. I believe what you believe 100% One thing can you explain to me if the image was created by Vapography. Then when the bones are just left and just the image remains on the shroud could that explain the blood clots not breaking and the image on the shroud. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17922589626668061507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955388713581848615.post-45825615781802765462012-04-10T23:45:03.390+08:002012-04-10T23:45:03.390+08:00Anonymous
>But you made so many points that I ...Anonymous<br /><br />>But you made so many points that I have decided to respond to your comment in a separate blog post.<br /><br />I have now posted my response to your comment at <a href="http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com.au/2012/04/de-wesselow-fails-to-answer-reasons-why.html" rel="nofollow">`De Wesselow fails to answer the reasons why rational people accept the Shroud is a fake'</a><br /><br />Stephen E. JonesStephen E. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16183223752386599799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955388713581848615.post-29663723198083650222012-04-09T11:30:22.275+08:002012-04-09T11:30:22.275+08:00Anonymous
>When are people going to accept rea...Anonymous<br /><br />>When are people going to accept reality *without* filtering it through their beliefs? <br /><br />Thanks for your comment. But you made so many points that I have decided to respond to your comment in a separate blog post.<br /><br />Stephen E. JonesStephen E. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16183223752386599799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955388713581848615.post-46359358905519743042012-04-09T01:08:42.540+08:002012-04-09T01:08:42.540+08:00Oh no not again..............
When are people goin...Oh no not again..............<br />When are people going to accept reality *without* filtering it through their beliefs? The shroud is a fake, just like the eighty or so others. De Wesselow fails to answer the reasons why rational people accept it is a fake, e.g.<br /> the lack of evidence it existed prior to ~1355<br /> the incompatibility of the shroud with usual Jewish burial practices<br /> the definitive radiocarbon dating<br /> the textile analysis<br /> the belief of contemporary church figures that it was a fake, even indicating a local bishop questioned the artist who created the shroud<br /> the pigment analyses, microscopical and chemical<br /> the iconographic similarity to other religious art of the period<br /> the ease with which the shroud has been replicated using period methods<br /> the lack of correspondence of the image on the cloth to that which would result from it being used as a shroud<br /><br />It's rather pathetic how desperate the religious are to (ab)use science to support their beliefs and quiet the doubts.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955388713581848615.post-70228490755013222872012-04-01T12:47:23.863+08:002012-04-01T12:47:23.863+08:00F3
>... I have a really big problem with that ...F3<br /><br />>... I have a really big problem with that theory by Dr Lavoie ... When the deciples entered the tomb it would have been practically impossible for them to see the image as the image is on the inside of the Shroud and the Shroud was still 'most likely' bound by strips (this was the give away that something strange had occurred) <br /><br />That is a good point. Unless the Shroud had been opened out the image could not be seen. But the Shroud is 4.4 metres long when opened out, and I doubt that there was that much room in the Tomb.<br /><br /><a href="http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com.au/2012/01/john-p-jackson-unconventional.html" rel="nofollow">Jackson's Cloth Collapse theory</a> (which I agree with) indicates that the clothed passed through where Jesus body was, so it would not have needed to have been opened out for Jesus to have been resurrected.<br /><br />>and the tomb would have been too dark to see any imprints even if they had unravalled it. One must remember the image on the Shroud is very faint and is far more difficult to see in 'real life'.<br /><br />Agreed. See my response above.<br /><br />>All photos of the Shroud are contrast enhanced therefore easy to recognise. In my mind it would seem more probable the imprints were noticed later when in a secret viewing with much more light.<br /><br />Agreed. See above. It would probably have been Jesus who pointed it out to them, during one of His appearances during the "forty days" after His resurrection (<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+1:3&version=ESV" rel="nofollow">Acts 1:3</a>).<br /><br />It seems unlikely that Thomas would have been so sceptical (<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jn%2020:24-25&version=ESV" rel="nofollow">Jn 20:24-25</a>) if the disciples had been aware at that early stage that they had tangible proof of Jesus' resurrection in His image imprinted on His burial Shroud.<br /><br />Stephen E. Jones<br />-----------------------------------<br /><b>Comments</b> are moderated. Those I consider off-topic, offensive or sub-standard will not appear. Each individual will usually be allowed only one comment under each post. Since I no longer debate, any response by me will usually be only once to each individual under each post.Stephen E. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16183223752386599799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955388713581848615.post-65860692539607412772012-04-01T12:21:43.085+08:002012-04-01T12:21:43.085+08:00Here is my response to the email above, which itse...Here is my response to the email above, which itself began as an email but I decided to turn it into a comment.<br /><br />M...<br /><br />Thanks for your messages. I have both of Lavoie's books and I will check what he says about Peter and John seeing the Shroud image in the empty Tomb.<br /><br />But the Gospel accounts of Peter and John entering the Tomb do not mention that they saw the Shroud image:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Lk%2024:12&version=ESV" rel="nofollow">Lk 24:12</a>. But Peter rose and ran to the tomb; stooping and looking in, he saw the linen cloths by themselves; and he went home marveling at what had happened.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jn%2020:3-10&version=ESV" rel="nofollow">Jn 20:3-10</a>. 3 So Peter went out with the other disciple, and they were going toward the tomb. 4 Both of them were running together, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. 5 And stooping to look in, he saw the linen cloths lying there, but he did not go in. 6 Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb. He saw the linen cloths lying there, 7 and the face cloth, which had been on Jesus' head, not lying with the linen cloths but folded up in a place by itself. 8 Then the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went in, and he saw and believed; 9 for as yet they did not understand the Scripture, that he must rise from the dead. 10 Then the disciples went back to their homes.<br /><br />which I agree is not decisive because it is an argument from silence, and they do not mention them taking the graveclothes, which they probably did, rather than leave them for grave-robbers (see my <a href="http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com.au/2011/01/re-john-calvin-on-shroud-1.html" rel="nofollow">Re: John Calvin on the Shroud #1</a> & <a href="http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com.au/2011/01/re-john-calvin-on-shroud-2.html" rel="nofollow">#2</a>).<br /><br />But nevertheless I consider it unlikely that they would have seen the Shroud image at that time. The Shroud image is very faint and can only be clearly seen at a distance of several metres. And inside the Tomb it would probably have been still dark in the early morning light, and probably there would not have been much room to see the Shroud from a few metres back. Also, they would not have been looking for an image (to put it mildly).<br /><br />Therefore I consider it more likely that John took Jesus' graveclothes home to Mary, Jesus' next of kin and the legal owner of them, who was staying with him (<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jn%2019:26-27&version=ESV" rel="nofollow">Jn 19:26-27</a>) and the image was discovered later.<br /><br />In Christ.<br /><br />Stephen E. JonesStephen E. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16183223752386599799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955388713581848615.post-73470150109096952152012-04-01T11:29:27.021+08:002012-04-01T11:29:27.021+08:00To the emailer comment above; I have a really big ...To the emailer comment above; I have a really big problem with that theory by Dr Lavoie, not rejecting him, but this one issue. When the deciples entered the tomb it would have been practically impossible for them to see the image as the image is on the inside of the Shroud and the Shroud was still 'most likely' bound by strips (this was the give away that something strange had occurred) and the tomb would have been too dark to see any imprints even if they had unravalled it. One must remember the image on the Shroud is very faint and is far more difficult to see in 'real life'. All photos of the Shroud are contrast enhanced therefore easy to recognise. In my mind it would seem more probable the imprints were noticed later when in a secret viewing with much more light.<br /><br />F3Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955388713581848615.post-53270130672494048732012-04-01T08:42:29.776+08:002012-04-01T08:42:29.776+08:00The following is an email I received, with the nam...The following is an email I received, with the name of the sender removed:<br /><br />-----------------------------------<br />Dear Stephen Jones,<br /> <br />I found your article ... on the Shroud ideas of Thomas De Wesselow fascinating and very well written. ...<br /> <br />The only point I might dispute is your contention that Peter and John did not see the Shroud image when they entered the tomb on Easter morning.<br /> <br />I refer you to the book below of Dr. Gilbert Lavoie, who presents textual evidence that this is exactly what they saw in the tomb. Dr. Lavoie is a beleiver too, so he does not at all favor de Wesselow's theory that the image on the Shroud is the only evidence of the resurrection that the disciples saw.<br /> <br />However, he does argue that Jesus alludes to the Shroud image when He says that:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jn%2012:32&version=ESV" rel="nofollow">John 12:32</a> And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”<br /><br />His book is:<br /><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Unlocking-Secrets-Shroud-Gilbert-Lavoie/dp/088347395X/" rel="nofollow">Unlocking the Secrets of the Shroud</a> by Gilbert R. Lavoie (Jan 1, 1998)<br /><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Resurrected-Tangible-Evidence-Shrouds-Revealed/dp/0883474581/" rel="nofollow">Resurrected: Tangible Evidence Jesus Rose from the Dead, Shroud's Message Revealed 2000 Years Later</a>. by Gilbert R. Lavoie (Mar 2000) (second edition)<br /> <br />And his website is:<br /><a href="http://shroudofjesus.com/" rel="nofollow">http://shroudofjesus.com/</a><br /> <br />Sincerely in Christ,<br /><br />...<br />-----------------------------------<br /><br />As per my longstanding policy of responding publicly via my blog, to private messages I receive that are a topic of that blog, I will respond to the sender's email in a comment below.<br /><br />Stephen E. JonesStephen E. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16183223752386599799noreply@blogger.com