tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955388713581848615.post255354146638793248..comments2024-03-14T08:08:39.968+08:00Comments on The Shroud of Turin: "Gn-Gq": Turin Shroud Dictionary Stephen E. Joneshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16183223752386599799noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955388713581848615.post-64210552406628051412015-06-16T12:10:52.848+08:002015-06-16T12:10:52.848+08:00>>I have not yet added, but am working on, a...>>I have not yet added, but am working on, and hopefully will insert by tomorrow, my comment on "in 2000 in a paper published among the conference papers of the Turin conference of that year, he repeated his support fro [sic] the accuracy of the 1988 dating."<br /><br />See above starting with, "At a 2000 Shroud symposium in Turin, Gonella repeated his support for the accuracy of the 1988 dating" and ending with, "`Hacking' ... would make the Shroud <i>wrongly appear</i> to be a medieval fake in the eyes of the <i>duped</i> laboratories, Gonella, the media and most people!"<br /><br />Stephen E. JonesStephen E. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16183223752386599799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955388713581848615.post-74606874425928130292015-06-16T07:55:15.811+08:002015-06-16T07:55:15.811+08:00>>I have not yet added, but am working on, a...>>I have not yet added, but am working on, and hopefully will insert by tomorrow, my comment on "in 2000 in a paper published among the conference papers of the Turin conference of that year, he repeated his support fro [sic] the accuracy of the 1988 dating."<br /><br />See above starting with, "At a 2000 Shroud symposium in Turin, Gonella repeated his support for the accuracy of the 1988 dating" and ending "`Hacking' ... would make the Shroud <i>wrongly appear</i> to be a medieval fake in the eyes of the <i>duped</i> laboratories, Gonella, the media and most people!"<br /><br />Stephen E. JonesStephen E. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16183223752386599799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955388713581848615.post-73024840827287922612015-06-15T23:07:45.989+08:002015-06-15T23:07:45.989+08:00>I am conscious of the need to keep my dictiona...>I am conscious of the need to keep my dictionary entries short, but I will insert <br />something along the lines you suggest. <br /><br />See above where I have inserted:<br /><br />"However, inconsistent with Turin's priority is that "Riggi cut <i>double</i> what was actually going to be given to the three labs ... divided one half into three segments, the other half being retained as a `reserve piece.'" Presumably this reserve piece was to let the laboratories know that Turin could arrange a check of their results if necessary. In 1988 and 2003 Gonella sent STURP members Alan D. Adler and Ray Rogers, respectively, threads from the `reserve sample'. And in 1993 Riggi gave threads from the `reserve sample' to Leoncio Garza-Valdes ..."<br /><br />I have not yet added, but am working on, and hopefully will insert by tomorrow, my comment on "in 2000 in a paper published among the conference papers of the Turin conference of that year, he repeated his support fro [sic] the accuracy of the 1988 dating."<br /><br />Stephen E. JonesStephen E. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16183223752386599799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955388713581848615.post-67112020056911135022015-06-15T06:33:38.652+08:002015-06-15T06:33:38.652+08:00Lyfe
>Stephen - you need to add to your biogra...Lyfe<br /><br />>Stephen - you need to add to your biography of Gonella the fact that he provided Ray Rogers with threads from the Shroud and also that in 2000 in a paper published among the conference papers of the Turin conference of that year, he repeated his support fro the accuracy of the 1988 dating. <br /><br />Thanks. I am conscious of the need to keep my dictionary entries short, but I will insert something along the lines you suggest. <br /><br />Stephen E. JonesStephen E. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16183223752386599799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955388713581848615.post-51295935896295854412015-06-15T02:14:03.833+08:002015-06-15T02:14:03.833+08:00Stephen - you need to add to your biography of Gon...Stephen - you need to add to your biography of Gonella the fact that he provided Ray Rogers with threads from the Shroud and also that in 2000 in a paper published among the conference papers of the Turin conference of that year, he repeated his support fro the accuracy of the 1988 dating.Lyfenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955388713581848615.post-49642409868650438282015-06-14T21:58:42.095+08:002015-06-14T21:58:42.095+08:00John
>Your comment measures up to the quality ...John<br /><br />>Your comment measures up to the quality of the De Wesselow presentation. <br /><br />Thanks.<br /><br />>I am abit biased becasue some of it echoes what I have written in my book Quantum Christ<br /><br />I have not read that yet. But I have just now ordered it.<br /><br />>including application of Occam's Razor. The simplest solution is not just that the Shroud is Christ's. Ultimately, the simplest solution to image foramtion is the Resurrection.<br /><br />Agreed. That's what I wrote: "[7] Ockham's Razor again ... The simplest explanation is that the Shroud of Turin is Jesus' burial shroud <i>and the body image on it is Jesus' caused by His resurrection</i>."<br /><br />Stephen E. Jones<br />---------------------------------<br />Reader, if you like this my <a href="http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com.au/" rel="nofollow">The Shroud of Turin </a> blog, and you have a website, could you please consider adding a hyperlink to my blog on it? This would help increase its <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PageRank" rel="nofollow">Google PageRank</a> number and so enable those who are Google searching on "the Shroud of Turin" to more readily discover my blog. Thanks.Stephen E. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16183223752386599799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955388713581848615.post-66060719033766950912015-06-14T20:58:23.246+08:002015-06-14T20:58:23.246+08:00Stephen,
Your comment measures up to the quality ...Stephen,<br /><br />Your comment measures up to the quality of the De Wesselow presentation. I am abit biased becasue some of it echoes what I have written in my book Quantum Christ including application of Occam's Razor. The simplest solution is not just that the Shroud is Christ's. Ultimately, the simplest solution to image foramtion is the Resurrection.<br /><br />johnklotz.blogspot.comjohn klotzhttp://johnklotz.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955388713581848615.post-86414096213403193242015-06-13T17:41:49.282+08:002015-06-13T17:41:49.282+08:00[continued]
[5] a Maillard reaction would not exp...[continued]<br /><br />[5] a Maillard reaction would not explain the coin and flower images on the Shroud.<br /><br />[6] a non-resurrection explanation does not explain how the Shroud was removed from Jesus' (or another crucified in imitation of Jesus) body with the blood clots that adhered to both His body and the Shroud being intact and not tearing.<br /><br />[7] Ockham's Razor again: Jesus is the only person of whom it is credibly claimed that He was resurrected. The Shroud of Turin is credibly claimed to be Jesus' burial shroud and it only has an image of a body that has wounds and bloodstains consistent with the Gospels' description of Jesus' suffering and death. The simplest explanation is that the Shroud of Turin is Jesus' burial shroud and the body image on it is Jesus' caused by His resurrection.<br /><br />But credit must go to de Wesselow for having the unusual intellectual honesty as an agnostic to fairly consider the evidence for the Shroud's authenticity and conclude that it is. The words of Jesus in <a href="http://tinyurl.com/nq6leco" rel="nofollow">Mark 12:34</a> apply to de Wesselow (and all not-yet-Christians who accept that the Shroud is authentic):<br /><br />"You are not far from the kingdom of God."<br /><br />Stephen E. Jones<br />----------------------------------<br />MY POLICIES Comments are moderated. Those I consider off-topic, offensive or sub-standard will not appear. Except that comments under my latest post can be on any Shroud-related topic without being off-topic. I normally allow only one comment per individual under each one of my posts.Stephen E. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16183223752386599799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955388713581848615.post-82981951232846317932015-06-13T17:30:21.384+08:002015-06-13T17:30:21.384+08:00Anonymous
>The following video will interest y...Anonymous<br /><br />>The following video will interest you. Please click on the below link.<br />><br />>https://vimeo.com/117793165<br /><br />Thank you. It did: "<a href="https://vimeo.com/117793165" rel="nofollow">Thomas De Wesselow analyses the Turin Shroud Image</a>."<br /><br />The AGNOSTIC art historian Thomas De Wesselow is DEVASTATING against the Shroud being a medieval forgery.<br /><br />He concludes that the Shroud can ONLY be Christ's burial sheet or someone else crucified in the first (or early) century in imitation of Christ.<br /><br />De Wesselow doesn't say it, but <a href="http://tinyurl.com/q9trea9" rel="nofollow">Ockham's Razor</a> eliminates the latter. The simplest explanation is that the Shroud IS Christ's.<br /><br />Being a non-Christian, de Wesselow cannot accept the Shroud image was caused by Jesus' resurrection. So he argues for the Shroud body image having been caused by a <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maillard_reaction" rel="nofollow">Maillard reaction</a>, as proposed by STURP chemist Ray Rogers:<br /><br />"The Maillard reaction is a form of non-enzymatic browning involving an amino acid and a reducing sugar. The cellulose fibers of the shroud are coated with a thin carbohydrate layer of starch fractions, various sugars, and other impurities. ... Raymond Rogers and Anna Arnoldi propose that amines from a recently deceased human body may have undergone Maillard reactions with this carbohydrate layer within a reasonable period of time, before liquid decomposition products stained or damaged the cloth. The gases produced by a dead body are extremely reactive chemically and within a few hours, in an environment such as a tomb, a body starts to produce heavier amines in its tissues such as putrescine and cadaverine." ("<a href="http://tinyurl.com/odvt23o" rel="nofollow">Shroud of Turin: Maillard reaction</a>," Wikipedia, 10 June 2015. Footnotes omitted).<br /><br />But de Wesselow doesn't mention that that explanation fails on several counts:<br /><br />"[1] However the potential source for amines required for the reaction is a decomposing body, and no signs of decomposition have been found on the Shroud. <br /><br />[2] Rogers also notes that their tests revealed that there were no proteins or bodily fluids on the image areas. <br /><br />[3] Also, the image resolution and the uniform coloration of the linen resolution seem to be incompatible with a mechanism involving diffusion." (Ibid. My numbers in square brackets)<br /><br />Further:<br /><br />[4] there are no Shroud-like images on other burial shrouds, of which there are many Egyptian ones. If it is argued that there are no other shrouds of crucifixion victims which have survived and if they had, they might have had Shroud-like Maillard reaction images on them, then that raises the question, why has the Shroud only survived? The image would be on the inside and the disciples, being Jews, would have no reason for, and strong reasons against, removing Jesus' shroud from his dead body. This invalidates <a href="http://tinyurl.com/82oex4m" rel="nofollow">de Wesselow's Monty Pythonesque explanation</a> that: "What the apostles were seeing was the image of Jesus on the Shroud, which they then mistook for the real thing. It sounds ... as absurd as a scene from a Monty Python film."<br /><br />[continued]Stephen E. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16183223752386599799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955388713581848615.post-83699465113624458842015-06-13T12:30:36.532+08:002015-06-13T12:30:36.532+08:00The following video will interest you. Please clic...The following video will interest you. Please click on the below link.<br /><br />https://vimeo.com/117793165Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com