tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955388713581848615.post4294764513578144066..comments2024-03-14T08:08:39.968+08:00Comments on The Shroud of Turin: My critique of Charles Freeman's "The Turin Shroud and the Image of Edessa: A Misguided Journey," part 4: "The Shroud of Turin and the Sudarium of Oviedo" (2)Stephen E. Joneshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16183223752386599799noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955388713581848615.post-66462843199779840162012-09-22T09:55:36.574+08:002012-09-22T09:55:36.574+08:00Robert
>Jesus said Blessed are those who have ...Robert<br /><br />>Jesus said Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.But we have the proof right here.<br /><br />Agreed. In a comment under another post I wrote:<br /><br />-----------------------------------Previously I BELIEVED that Jesus rose from the dead but now I KNOW that He has, in the same way that the Apostle John "saw the linen cloths lying there ... and believed":<br /><br /><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jn%2020:3-8&version=ESV" rel="nofollow">Jn 20:3-8</a>. 3 So Peter went out with the other disciple, and they were going toward the tomb. 4 Both of them were running together, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. 5 And stooping to look in, he saw the linen cloths lying there, but he did not go in. 6 Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb. He saw the linen cloths lying there, 7 and the face cloth, which had been on Jesus' head, not lying with the linen cloths but folded up in a place by itself. 8 Then the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went in, and he saw and believed;<br />-----------------------------------<br /><br />>This is powerful stuff and in reading the narrative of post crucifixion I could see everything playing out as the body of our Lord was taken down and lovingly wrapped in the burial shroud.<br /><br />Agreed. The Shroud of Turin bears the image of the Son of God's crowned with thorns (<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mt%2027:29;Jn%2019:2&version=ESV" rel="nofollow">Mt 27:29; Jn 19:2</a>), flogged (<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mt%2027:26;%20Mk%2015:15&version=ESV" rel="nofollow">Mt 27:26; Mk 15:15</a>), crucified (<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mt%2027:35;%20Mk%2015:24;%20Lk%2023:33;%20Jn%2019:18&version=ESV" rel="nofollow">Mt 27:35; Mk 15:24; Lk 23:33; Jn 19:18</a>), dead (<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mt%2027:50;%20Mk%2015:37,43-45;%20Lk%2023:46;%20Jn%2019:30&version=ESV" rel="nofollow">Mt 27:50; Mk 15:37,43-45; Lk 23:46; Jn 19:30</a>), speared in the side (<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jn%2019:34&version=ESV" rel="nofollow">Jn 19:34</a>), and <i>resurrected</i> (<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mt%2028:1-6;%20Mk%2016:1-6;%20Lk%2024:1-6;%20Jn%2020:1-9&version=ESV" rel="nofollow">Mt 28:1-6; Mk 16:1-6; Lk 24:1-6; Jn 20:1-9</a>) body, and so helps me to better appreciate His "<a href="http://www.worship.co.za/tfh/tfh-0605.asp" rel="nofollow">Amazing Love</a>" for me: <br /><br />-----------------------------------<br />Amazing Love<br />Graham Kendrick)<br /><br />My Lord, what love is this that pays so dearly <br />That I the guilty one, may go free <br /><br />Amazing love oh what sacrifice <br />The Son of God giv’n for me <br />My debt He pays and my death He dies <br />That I might live, that I might live<br /><br />...<br />----------------------------------- <br />>Praise God. <br /><br />Amen!<br /><br />Stephen E. Jones<br />-----------------------------------<br /><b>Comments</b> are moderated. Those I consider off-topic, offensive or sub-standard will not appear. I reserve the right to respond to any comment as a separate blog post.Stephen E. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16183223752386599799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955388713581848615.post-10133662489046283072012-09-21T13:03:25.798+08:002012-09-21T13:03:25.798+08:00Jesus said Blessed are those who have not seen and...Jesus said Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.But we have the proof right here.This is powerful stuff and in reading the narrative of post crucifixion I could see everything playing out as the body of our Lord was taken down and lovingly wrapped in the burial shroud.Praise God.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01069496207803107968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955388713581848615.post-52657564473657858212012-08-05T17:58:49.422+08:002012-08-05T17:58:49.422+08:00Bippy123
>Stephen, this is a devastating criti...Bippy123<br /><br />>Stephen, this is a devastating critique of Freeman's book. <br /><br />It isn't a "book" but an article, "<a href="http://freeinquiry.com/skeptic/shroud/articles/freeman_shroud_edessa_misguided_journey/" rel="nofollow">The Turin Shroud and the Image of Edessa: A Misguided Journey</a>," May 24, 2012, which presumably, from its URL, is going to be in <i>Free Inquiry</i> magazine<br /><br />And it is only "devastating" because of the weakness and falsity of Freeman's arguments.<br /><br />>So far what I've seen from him are his capacity of writing half truths and trying to pass them off as full truths. <br /><br />Agreed. `A half truth presented as a full truth is an untruth'! <br /><br />>truely looking forward to the next parts of your critique .<br /><br />Thanks. I am working on it.<br /><br />[...]<br /><br />Stephen E. JonesStephen E. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16183223752386599799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955388713581848615.post-16602036543048250162012-08-05T17:20:55.696+08:002012-08-05T17:20:55.696+08:00Stephen, this is a devastating critique of Freeman...Stephen, this is a devastating critique of Freeman's book. So far what I've seen from him are his capacity of writing half truths and trying to pass them off as full truths. I'm truely looking forward to the next parts of your critique .<br />God bless<br />Bippy123bippy123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955388713581848615.post-27070328790061092382012-08-05T07:33:55.424+08:002012-08-05T07:33:55.424+08:00[continued]
>Picture (snapshot) after they hav...[continued]<br /><br />>Picture (snapshot) after they have taken him down from the cross and placed him face down with the patibulum still across his back as they remove the nails. <br /><br />It may have been the Roman soldiers' job to take crucifixion victims down from their crosses. They would have the nail puller tools.<br /><br />>Picture (snapshot)several of the followers turning the body over and one re-adjusting the cloth so it wraps completely around the head, then picture as they carry the lord to the tomb, John? or one of the followers, grasps his left hand to the noise to stem the flow of blood and water. <br /><br />Yes. It is amazing that the Sudarium's folds and blood and lung fluid stains reveals such a realistic and consistent account of events. Again, Pierre Barbet's question about the Shroud, applies also to the Sudarium:<br /><br />"<i>Could a forger have imagined this?</i>" ("A Doctor at Calvary," 1953, p.119. Emphasis original).<br /><br />>Picture as they have reached the tomb and they have placed the lord on the Shroud, the cloth is removed, sprinkled with myrrh and put to a side...<br /><br />Yes. I noticed on <a href="http://tinyurl.com/9pesumh" rel="nofollow">one of Dan Porter's posts</a>, the Empty Vessel which Makes the Most Noise does not understand this point:<br /><br />"... but that’s the least of his [Jones'] problems as far as equating a burial cloth with a face cloth, both supposedly draped over the same part of the anatomy, and presumably competing for quality image time."<br /><br />because he has not read extensively enough (if at all) the literature of the field he is criticising.<br /><br />>This simple little cloth has taken us back 2000 years and shown us, in a quite personal way, what had actually occurred on a most sorrowful day...It's actually quite overwhelming when one contemplates.<br /><br />Agreed. Thanks for this comment.<br /><br />Stephen E. Jones<br />-----------------------------------<br /><b>Comments</b> are moderated. Those I consider off-topic, offensive or sub-standard will not appear. I reserve the right to respond to any comment as a separate blog post.Stephen E. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16183223752386599799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955388713581848615.post-66888052239075683302012-08-05T07:31:27.575+08:002012-08-05T07:31:27.575+08:00Flagrum3
>Nice write-up so far Stephen!
Thank...Flagrum3<br /><br />>Nice write-up so far Stephen!<br /><br />Thanks.<br /><br />>The thing I love about the Sudarium (and the information gained through it's extensive study) is that it's like having 'snapshots' of the post-passion. <br /><br />Agreed and well-put.<br /><br />>Details have been pulled from this insconspicuous cloth that were never mentioned in scriptures and never even contemplated!<br /><br />Good point. How COULD a forger have produced them? And why WOULD he?<br /><br />As far as I know there is NO anti-authenticist theory of how and why the Sudarium was forged. <br /><br />>...We can picture(snapshot)someone climbing up behind the cross to wrap the cloth about the head, but finding he cannot, because the head is tilted tightly against the right shoulder or arm in rigor-mortis. <br /><br />Agreed. For those who haven't done so, watch the video "<a href="http://tinyurl.com/8wa4ps6" rel="nofollow">Shroud Report Interview with Mark Guscin on the Sudarium of Oviedo</a>".<br /><br />And remember, a cross did not have to be very high. As long as the victim's feet cleared the ground, that would be sufficient.<br /><br />>Hense causing this person to improvise and double-over the cloth and pin it to the back. <br /><br />Presumably it was the Apostle John, since he (self-effacingly never names himself in his gospel but calls himself "the disciple whom he [Jesus] loved"), was apparently the only male disciple at the Cross:<br /> <br /><a href="http://tinyurl.com/94jgbmw" rel="nofollow">Jn 19:25-27</a>. 25 but standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother [Mary] and his mother's sister [Salome-John's mother-<a href="http://tinyurl.com/9dla6tp" rel="nofollow">Mt 27:56; Mk 15:40</a>], Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” 27 Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.<br /><br />Although it could also have been Joseph of Arimathea and/or Nicodemus helping:<br /><br /><a href="http://tinyurl.com/8z3u3sn" rel="nofollow">Jn 19:38-40</a>. 38 After these things Joseph of Arimathea, who was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, asked Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus, and Pilate gave him permission. So he came and took away his body. 39 Nicodemus also, who earlier had come to Jesus by night, came bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about seventy-five pounds in weight. 40 So they took the body of Jesus and bound it in linen cloths with the spices, as is the burial custom of the Jews.<br /><br />and/or one of the other male disciples (Peter?) who may have been previously among Jesus' "acquaintances" watching from a distance:<br /><br /><a href="http://tinyurl.com/9ctsna2" rel="nofollow">Lk 23:48-49</a>. 48 And all the crowds that had assembled for this spectacle, when they saw what had taken place, returned home beating their breasts. 49 And all his acquaintances and the women who had followed him from Galilee stood at a distance watching these things.<br /><br />[continued]Stephen E. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16183223752386599799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955388713581848615.post-59239006856522150372012-08-01T19:15:48.296+08:002012-08-01T19:15:48.296+08:00Nice write-up so far Stephen!
The thing I love ab...Nice write-up so far Stephen!<br /><br />The thing I love about the Sudarium (and the information gained through it's extensive study) is that it's like having 'snapshots' of the post-passion. Details have been pulled from this insconspicuous cloth that were never mentioned in scriptures and never even contemplated!...We can picture(snapshot)someone climbing up behind the cross to wrap the cloth about the head, but finding he cannot, because the head is tilted tightly against the right shoulder or arm in rigor-mortis. Hense causing this person to improvise and double-over the cloth and pin it to the back. Picture (snapshot) after they have taken him down from the cross and placed him face down with the patibulum still across his back as they remove the nails. Picture (snapshot)several of the followers turning the body over and one re-adjusting the cloth so it wraps completely around the head, then picture as they carry the lord to the tomb, John? or one of the followers, grasps his left hand to the noise to stem the flow of blood and water. Picture as they have reached the tomb and they have placed the lord on the Shroud, the cloth is removed, sprinkled with myrrh and put to a side...This simple little cloth has taken us back 2000 years and shown us, in a quite personal way, what had actually occurred on a most sorrowful day...It's actually quite overwhelming when one contemplates.<br /><br />F3Flagrum3noreply@blogger.com