tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955388713581848615.post6875358993686898767..comments2024-03-14T08:08:39.968+08:00Comments on The Shroud of Turin: The Pray Manuscript (or Codex)Stephen E. Joneshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16183223752386599799noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955388713581848615.post-45603404384682599852012-05-19T16:41:42.174+08:002012-05-19T16:41:42.174+08:00Anonymous
>>Or, perhaps, it proves that the...Anonymous<br /><br />>>Or, perhaps, it proves that the artist of the fake shroud knew of the Hungarian prayer manuscript, and incorporated these tell-tale signs into his forgery...?<br /><br />>Thanks for your comment. I will answer it in a separate blog post.<br /><br />I have belatedly responded to your comment in my separate blog post, "<a href="http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com.au/2012/05/or-artist-of-fake-shroud-knew-of-pray.html" rel="nofollow">`Or the artist of the fake shroud knew of the Pray Manuscript and incorporated these signs into his forgery?'</a>". My apologies for the delay.<br /><br />Stephen E. JonesStephen E. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16183223752386599799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955388713581848615.post-42849172419912382152012-05-13T00:40:01.702+08:002012-05-13T00:40:01.702+08:00Matt
>I fail to see how the shroud can be inte...Matt<br /><br />>I fail to see how the shroud can be interpreted to be twice the length of the man - please explain.<br /><br />The words "twice the length of the man" were those of a Prof. Lejeune who went to Hungary to study the Pray Manuscript in the early 1990s.<br /><br />The man in the upper part of Plate III measures about 133 mm, without his feet being shown. With his feet that would be about 135 mm. Twice that would be about 270 mm.<br /><br />The folded over shroud in the lower part of Plate III measures about 146+116 = about 260 mm. But like the feet, the far right edge of the Shroud is not shown.<br /><br />So while that is not exactly "twice the length of the man," it is close enough to it(bearing in mind that the far right edge of the Shroud is not shown), to reasonably conclude that the artist intended to depict the ~4 metre (~14 foot) Shroud of Turin (as it now is called).<br /><br />>The only thing I can think of is that you are interpreting what I think is the tomb (with the red crosses) as part of the shroud.<br /><br />What you are intepreting as the tomb, is in fact the Shroud. The red crosses are the artist's depiction of the Shroud's herringbone weave pattern. And again the two parts add up to about twice the length of Jesus' body, as the Shroud is.<br /><br />>Likewise, I can't understand the reference to the L shaped pattern of holes on "the front and the back". Clearly there is the L shaped pattern of 4 holes on the object which the angel is standing on,<br /><br />That "object which the angel is standing on" is part of the depicted Shroud. The 4 L-shaped circles match exactly one set of 4 L-shaped holes on the Shroud.<br /><br />>but I interpret the circular objects on the object below it with the red crosses (which I think is the tomb) as decorative.<br /><br />Why would the tomb be decorated with red crosses? Besides, the angel, women and the Shroud are <i>in</i> the tomb. And part of the tomb itself can be seen in the background behind the angel. The holes amongst the red crosses (the herringbone weave) are another set of the total of four sets of burn holes in the Shroud, not all of which are L-shaped. Click on this <a href="http://www.shroudofturin4journalists.com/Details/copy1.htm" rel="nofollow">1516 Liere copy</a> of the Shroud link.<br /><br />>Also, if the painting is a copy of the shroud why is Jesus's body in the top part of the painting free of wounds and blood stains?<br /><br />The Byzantines were reluctant to depict bloodstains on their icon copies of Shroud, e.g. they depicted the reversed "3" bloodstain on the Shroud as a lock of hair. On Plate II where Jesus' body is being taken down from the Cross the artist doesn't depict any bloodstains on it there either. Only on Plate IV, does the artist depict Jesus as having red bloodspots on His hands and side.<br /><br />>Also, does Jesus in the painting have a beard? At best I can pick out whiskers!<br /><br />It <i>is</i> a beard, albeit not a heavy one as like Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus' are in the upper part of Plate III (above). But if you look at <a href="http://www.sindonology.org/shroudScope/shroudScope.shtml" rel="nofollow">Shroudscope's Face only Vertical</a>, which is how the artist would have seen it (a photographic negative), Jesus' beard does not appear to be heavy. Which itself is more evidence that the Pray Manuscript artist worked directly from the Shroud!<br /><br />Thanks for your comments, but as per my stated policy (see above) that: <br /><br />"Each individual will usually be allowed only one comment under each post. Since I no longer debate, any response by me will usually be only once to each individual under each post."<br /><br />you have had your last comment on this post. <br /><br />Stephen E. JonesStephen E. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16183223752386599799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955388713581848615.post-58808829285435658832012-05-12T20:34:44.581+08:002012-05-12T20:34:44.581+08:00Stephen
I fail to see how the shroud can be interp...Stephen<br />I fail to see how the shroud can be interpreted to be twice the length of the man - please explain. The only thing I can think of is that you are interpreting what I think is the tomb (with the red crosses) as part of the shroud. Likewise, I can't understand the reference to the L shaped pattern of holes on "the front and the back". Clearly there is the L shaped pattern of 4 holes on the object which the angel is standing on, but I interpret the circular objects on the object below it with the red crosses (which I think is the tomb) as decorative. <br /><br />Also, if the painting is a copy of the shroud why is Jesus's body in the top part of the painting free of wounds and blood stains? Also, does Jesus in the painting have a beard? At best I can pick out whiskers!Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03616935642703486461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955388713581848615.post-28039701493274605792012-05-12T17:45:26.302+08:002012-05-12T17:45:26.302+08:00Matt
>And what of the letter of the alphabet-t...Matt<br /><br />>And what of the letter of the alphabet-type figure above the supposed shroud? <br /><br />Disagree that what the Pray Manuscript depicts is only "the <i>supposed</i> shroud". As I pointed out above, there are at least <i>eleven</i> correspondences between the Pray Manuscript and the Shroud: <br /><br />"1. the shroud is twice the length of the man; 2. a herringbone weave pattern; 3. an `L'-shaped pattern of holes on the front and back; 4. beard and long hair; 5. mark above the right eye corresponding to the reverse `3'-shaped bloodstain on the Shroud; 6. body naked; 7. right hand over the left; 8. long fingers; 9. no thumbs; 10. nail wound on the wrist of the right hand (pl. IV); and 11. three nails used for crucifixion (pl. IV)."<br /><br />This is proof beyond <i>reasonable</i> doubt that the Pray Manuscript's (1192-95) drawings are based on the Shroud.<br /><br />>Is it a hungarian letter? What might it mean?<br /><br />I don't know. I am not an art expert and nor can I read Hungarian.<br /><br />>Also, is that an image of the shroud's peaceful, closed eyes head behind the right arm of the apostle?<br /><br />The lower part of the above Plate IV seems to be depicting the scene in <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016:1-6&version=ESV" rel="nofollow">Mark 16:1-6</a>, where in the empty tomb a "young man" (i.e. an angel) tells the three women disciples, "Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome" (John's mother) that Jesus had risen and points to the place where His body had been laid:<br /><br />"1 When the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him. 2 And very early on the first day of the week, when the sun had risen, they went to the tomb. 3 And they were saying to one another, `Who will roll away the stone for us from the entrance of the tomb?' 4 And looking up, they saw that the stone had been rolled back— it was very large. 5 And entering the tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, dressed in a white robe, and they were alarmed. 6 And he said to them, `Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has risen; he is not here. See the place where they laid him.'"<br /><br />So presumably the head near Mary Magdalene's right arm is meant to represent Jesus' resurrected body?<br /><br />Stephen E. JonesStephen E. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16183223752386599799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955388713581848615.post-41327470570581364502012-05-12T10:57:19.278+08:002012-05-12T10:57:19.278+08:00And what of the letter of the alphabet-type figure...And what of the letter of the alphabet-type figure above the supposed shroud? Is it a hungarian letter? What might it mean?<br />Also, is that an image of the shroud's peaceful, closed eyes head behind the right arm of the apostle?Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03616935642703486461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955388713581848615.post-62217747124769025212012-04-09T08:50:26.194+08:002012-04-09T08:50:26.194+08:00KL Oxford
>If you look at the Pray Manuscript ...KL Oxford<br /><br />>If you look at the Pray Manuscript in closer detail, you actually see decorative holes everywhere...from the clothing of the angels and the other people in the picture...and if you take a look at the supposed "shroud" in the picture...there are more holes than just the 4 that form the "L Shape".<br /><br />I have Berkovits' "Illuminated Manuscripts in Hungary, XI-XVI Centuries" (1969), plate III before me and I cannot see the "decorative holes everywhere" you claim to see, but the artists' representation of four L-shaped holes in the herringbone weave, are clearly evident.<br /><br />Indeed, they can be clearly seen on Wikipedia's picture of the Pray Manuscript at: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hungarianpraymanuscript1192-1195.jpg" rel="nofollow"> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hungarianpraymanuscript1192-1195.jpg </a> <br /><br />>This strongly suggest that the holes in the supposed shroud in the picture are nothing to with the L shaped burn holes at all!<br /><br />No, together with the other 10 correspondences between the Pray Manuscript with the Shroud: "1. the shroud is twice the length of the man; 2. a herringbone weave pattern; 3. an `L'-shaped pattern of holes on the front and back; 4. beard and long hair; 5. mark above the right eye corresponding to the reverse `3'-shaped bloodstain on the Shroud; 6. body naked; 7. right hand over the left; 8. long fingers; 9. no thumbs; 10. nail wound on the wrist of the right hand (pl. IV); and 11. three nails used for crucifixion (pl. IV)." (see my blog post above), they are proof beyond <i>reasonable</i> doubt that the Pray Manuscript's drawings reproduced on plates III and IV of Berkovits' book, are based on the Shroud. Therefore the Shroud must have existed well before the 1192-95 Pray Manuscript.<br /><br />>Furthermore you won;t actually see the "herringbone" pattern on the shroud unless your are very close up to it...so it's unlikely the artist would put the herringbone pattern in his picture.<br /><br />There is no reason why the artist could not have seen the Shroud very close up.<br /><br />>Imagaine I drew a TV picture onto a page...I would ONLY see the tiny pixels when I am close up to the screen...so I am highly unlikely to draw a rectangle with small square pixels...why on Earth would this artist draw the herring bone pattern if you can only see it close up?<br /><br />Because he <i>was</i> close up to the Shroud!<br /><br />Also, it's a false analogy between pixels on a TV screen and the herringbone weave of the Shroud. The former is not part of the object being represented, but the latter is.<br /><br />>What about the closes of the other people...when viewed close up you would see various inticate patterns and stitchings...but we don't see that in the picture...and what about close up views of the bodies you would see body and facial hair on the skin...how come this isn't in the picture but the herringbone pattern is?<br /><br />A drawing is not a photograph. Artists always leave some things out, according to what they deem to be the most important. Besides, plate III does have Christ's facial hair: eyebrows, moustache and beard.<br /><br />>THE only conclusion you can really draw from this is that the Pray Manuscript is NOT very strong proof at all as regards to the Turin Shroud dating.<br /><br />No, you are deceiving yourself, by denying what is <i>obvious</i>, presumably because you don't want to accept that the Shroud is the burial sheet of Jesus, bearing the image of His crucified, dead and <i>resurrected</i> body!<br /><br />Stephen E. Jones<br />-----------------------------------<br /><b>Comments</b> are moderated. Those I consider off-topic, offensive or sub-standard will not appear. Each individual will usually be allowed only one comment under each post. Since I no longer debate, any response by me will usually be only once to each individual under each post.Stephen E. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16183223752386599799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955388713581848615.post-43136180228792790752012-04-09T00:42:03.622+08:002012-04-09T00:42:03.622+08:00If you look at the Pray Manuscript in closer detai...If you look at the Pray Manuscript in closer detail, you actually see decorative holes everywhere.....from the clothing of the angels and the other people in the picture.......and if you take a look at the supposed "shroud" in the picture........there are more holes than just the 4 that form the "L Shape".<br />This strongly suggest that the holes in the supposed shroud in the picture are nothing to with the L shaped burn holes at all!<br /><br />Furthermore you won;t actually see the "herringbone" pattern on the shroud unless your are very close up to it........so it's unlikely the artist would put the herringbone pattern in his picture.<br />Imagaine I drew a TV picture onto a page.......I would ONLY see the tiny pixels when I am close up to the screen......so I am highly unlikely to draw a rectangle with small square pixels.....why on Earth would this artist draw the herring bone pattern if you can only see it close up?<br />What about the closes of the other people......when viewed close up you would see various inticate patterns and stitchings.....but we don't see that in the picture.....and what about close up views of the bodies you would see body and facial hair on the skin.......how come this isn't in the picture but the herringbone pattern is?<br /><br />THE only conclusion you can really draw from this is that the Pray Manuscript is NOT very strong proof at all as regards to the Turin Shroud dating.KL Oxfordnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955388713581848615.post-31933658566646085212011-10-05T19:46:39.853+08:002011-10-05T19:46:39.853+08:00Anonymous
>Or, perhaps, it proves that the art...Anonymous<br /><br />>Or, perhaps, it proves that the artist of the fake shroud knew of the Hungarian prayer manuscript, and incorporated these tell-tale signs into his forgery...?<br /><br />Thanks for your comment. I will answer it in a separate blog post.<br /><br />Stephen E. JonesStephen E. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16183223752386599799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955388713581848615.post-47521715850419839212011-10-05T19:23:05.510+08:002011-10-05T19:23:05.510+08:00"Also, since Pray Manuscript proves that the ..."Also, since Pray Manuscript proves that the Shroud of Turin was already in existence before 1195"<br /><br />Oh my, oh my...<br /><br />Or, perhaps, it proves that the artist of the fake shroud knew of the Hungarian prayer manuscript, and incorporated these tell-tale signs into his forgery...?<br /><br />Oh wait, that makes much more sense...<br /><br />Lol!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com