A belated thank you for your comment in October 2011 on my post "The Pray Manuscript." At the time I briefly responded that I would
[Above (click image to enlarge): "The Entombment" (upper) and "Visit to the Sepulchre" (lower), Hungarian Pray Manuscript or Pray Codex (1192-1195): Berkovits, I., 1969 , "Illuminated Manuscripts in Hungary, XI-XVI Centuries," Horn, Z., transl., West, A., rev., Irish University Press: Shannon, Ireland, pl. III]
reply in a separate blog post, but it was only when I replied to a recent comment under that same post that I realised I had not replied to your comment as promised. My apologies. Your words are >bold to distinguish them from mine.
>>"Also, since Pray Manuscript proves that the Shroud of Turin was already in existence before 1195"
>Oh my, oh my... Your attempt to give the impression of your superior knowledge in this matter is noted.>Or, perhaps, it proves that the artist of the fake shroud knew of the Hungarian prayer manuscript, and incorporated these tell-tale signs into his forgery...? But your "prayer manuscript" reveals that you don't even know the name of what you are commenting on! It is the "Pray Manuscript" (or "Codex") which was named after a Hungarian historian György Pray who discovered it in 1770:
"The Codex Pray, Pray Codex or The Hungarian Pray Manuscript is a collection of medieval manuscripts. In 1813 it was named after György Pray, who discovered it in 1770. It is the first known example of continuous prose text in Hungarian. The Codex is kept in the National Széchényi Library of Budapest." ("Pray Codex," Wikipedia, 1 May 2011)
And thanks for your tacit admission that the Pray Manuscript and Shroud of Turin share a number of common features that can only be reasonably explained by either the Shroud having being copied from the Pray Manuscript or the Pray Manuscript having been copied from the Shroud. If the latter, because the Pray Manuscript has a confirmed existence since at least 1192-95, the 1988 radiocarbon dating of the Shroud to AD 1260-1390 has to be wrong.
Those features shared in common between the Shroud and the Pray Manuscript include: 1. Jesus is naked (uniquely in the medieval era); 2. His hands are crossed; 3. right over left; 4. nail mark(s) at the base of the hand (Plate IV); 5. no thumbs are visible; 6. long fingers; 7. double-length shroud; 8. herringbone pattern of shroud; 9. an L-shaped pattern of `poker' holes in the shroud; and 10. a mark above the right eye corresponding to reversed `3' bloodstain on the Shroud.
For the Pray Manuscript having been copied from the Shroud:
- Artistic evidence proves beyond reasonable doubt that the Shroud has been in existence since at least the 6th century (see my ongoing series on the Vignon markings). That's six centuries before the Pray Manuscript!
- The `poker holes' are real burn holes on the Shroud, but only ink painted circles on the Pray Manuscript. A forger would be most unlikely (putting it mildly) to thrust a hot poker through four thicknesses of his Shroud forgery, four times, to make four sets of vertically matching four poker-holes in it, based on the ink painted circles on the Pray Manuscript.
- There are bloodstains which are real blood on the Shroud, but there are no bloodstains on the body of Jesus in the Pray Manuscript's Entombment scene (upper Plate III above). The lack of bloodstains on the Pray Manuscript (there are only three red ink bloodstains on Plate IV and none on Plate II which depicts Jesus being taken down from the Cross) is readily explained by Byzantine and medieval artists being reluctant to show bloodstains on their copies of the Shroud, since they were seeking to depict the resurrected, living Christ. But if the Shroud was copied from the Pray Manuscript, a separate explanation is then required for the bloodstains on the Shroud (which have an anatomically accuracy unknown until Harvey discovered the arterial and venous circulation of human blood in the 17th century).
Against the Shroud having been copied from the Pray Manuscript:
- That would require a separate explanation for the origin of the Pray Manuscript, with its unique features:
"Perhaps most compelling of all is a drawing on a page of the Hungarian Pray manuscript preserved in the National Szechenyi Library, Budapest ... [Berkovits, I., "Illuminated Manuscripts in Hungary, XI-XVI Centuries," 1969, pl.III] Not only do we yet again see the awkward arm crossing, this time, most unusually, Jesus is represented as totally nude, exactly as on the Shroud. Again exactly as in the case of the Shroud, all four fingers on each of Jesus's hands can be seen, but no thumbs. Just over Jesus's right eye there is a single forehead bloodstain. Delineated in red, this is located in exactly the same position as that very distinctive reverse '3'-shaped stain on Jesus's forehead on the Shroud that we noted earlier. Exactly as in the case of the Shroud, the cloth in which Jesus is being wrapped is of double body length type, the second half, as known from other versions of the same scene, extending over Joseph of Arimathea's shoulder. If all this is not enough, the cover of what appears to be the tomb is decorated with a herringbone pattern in which can be seen four holes in an identical arrangement to the so-called 'poker-holes' on the Shroud that we have suggested were sustained during Caliph Mu'awiyah's 'trial by fire' experiment back around 680." (Wilson, I., "The Shroud: The 2000-Year-Old Mystery Solved," 2010, pp.183-184).
- It would be blasphemy, a capital crime in the Middle Ages, for an artist on his own initiative to depict Christ naked, unless He already was naked on the Shroud, which was regarded as acheiropoietos (Greek for "not made with hands").
- It would require the forger in 14th century France to know about the Pray Manuscript, when it was only discovered in 18th century Hungary by Hungarian historian György Pray.
- Why would the forger go to so much trouble, to travel from France to Hungary, to copy details from the Pray Manuscript for his Shroud forgery, and return (a round trip of about 2,500 kilometres or 1550 miles), when the gullible public in the 14th century would be satisfied with far less?:
"Also is it not rather incredible that this unknown individual should have gone to so much trouble and effort to deceive in an age in which, as twentieth-century journalists have reminded us, a large proportion of the populace would have been very easily duped by a feather of the Archangel Gabriel or a phial of the last breath of St Joseph?" (Wilson, I., "The Blood and the Shroud," 1998, pp.59-60).
- There is only one Vignon Marking on the Pray Manuscript: the `reversed 3' bloodstain on the Shroud image's right forehead, represented as a mark. That is readily explained by the ink painter of the Pray Manuscript working from the Shroud, but choosing to only depict that one Vignon Marking. But if the Shroud was copied from the Pray Manuscript, that would require a separate explanation for the other fourteen Vignon Markings on the Shroud.
- There is no comprehensive and coherent explanation of how the Shroud was copied from the Pray Manuscript, as part of a comprehensive and coherent explanation of the Shroud itself. Anyone who attempted it would find (or had already found and abandoned it) that it would break down at many points, including those above.
>Oh wait, that makes much more sense... It only `makes sense' to one whose mind has been taken captive by the philosophy (Colossians 2:8) of Naturalism: that nature is all there is-there is no supernatural. But as can be seen above, that the Shroud was copied from the Pray Manuscript makes no sense.>Lol! As can be seen above, the laugh is actually on you and your Shroud anti-authenticity ilk. The Pray Manuscript is just another piece of the overwhelming evidence that the Shroud of Turin is the burial sheet of Jesus Christ, bearing the image of His crucified and resurrected body!:
"Even from the limited available information, a hypothetical glimpse of the power operating at the moment of creation of the Shroud's image may be ventured. In the darkness of the Jerusalem tomb the dead body of Jesus lay, unwashed, covered in blood, on a stone slab. Suddenly, there is a burst of mysterious power from it. In that instant the blood dematerializes, dissolved perhaps by the flash, while its image and that of the body becomes indelibly fused onto the cloth, preserving for posterity a literal `snapshot' of the Resurrection." (Wilson, I., "The Turin Shroud," 1978, p.210).